PERM Fake Job Ads defraud Americans to secure green cards fo
programmersguild0 HN recommenders · 2011–2025
543K views · commentary · dated · Uploaded 2007-06-17
A 2007 clip in which immigration attorneys describe how they help employers run classified ads designed not to find qualified American applicants, so they can secure green cards for H-1B workers. It is presented as an exposé of the PERM process.
HN commenters in H-1B debates post it as evidence that the labor-market test is gamed with fake job ads.
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20 comments from Hacker News
It's a cost issue usually disguised as a "skilled immigrant" issue. Large companies want technical workers (the new miners and factory workers) who are willing to accept a much lower wage than native workers. So when they talk about "skilled" they usually mean "skilled and willing to work for $40k/year instead of $80k/year". Just look at how many H1B positions are advertised and how much legal but shady stuff goes on. Put ad in local paper among classifieds for "free dirt available", if any resumes are received from US citizens they are discarded (note they have to be "considered" but not accepted), and so on. If it was just about "skills" there would be no need for this shit to go on. [VIDEO]
“H-1B workers may be hired even when a qualified US worker wants the job, and a US worker can be displaced from the job in favor of the foreign worker.” US Department of Labor The US government and corporations have sold you out as a US CITIZEN. See the proof [VIDEO] ;
The devil is in the details. What constitutes a "skilled" worker? The selling point of the H-1B program was that there really were high-paying jobs available that absolutely nobody state side was stepping up to the plate for, so they needed to bring in skilled immigrants who had the chops to take on these high-paying jobs. The imagery was that America's Best Companies were stalling because they couldn't find the "best and brightest." Evidence suggests otherwise ( [LINK] ). Now, I'm not saying you can't find H-1Bs with high salaries or genius intellects. The study linked simply says it's not a majority of the people coming in. Most of them are decidedly not "best and brightest" and certainly aren't pulling six figures annually. That is, the program isn't being used for its stated purpose. Rather, it certainly seems that the goal is _not_ to find local talent, even if it's there ( [VIDEO] ), because one wants to manipulate the meaning of "prevailing wage" and "qualified worker" to suit a lower labour cost margin. As well, there are other economic indicators to consider. If there really is a widespread tech shortage you'd expect wages to rise. And you can see various market niches' wages spike at certain localized times of labor shortage. But you don't find high and increasing wages across the board, sustained for years at a time. That is, one of the key indicators of a crippling shortage, simply isn't there. The low unemployment rate in tech hubs like Silicon Valley is further
Look, Schmidt is just another Obama-tomaton. We can clearly see that here: "Schmidt was a campaign advisor and major donor to Barack Obama and served on Google’s government relations team."[0] It's purdy darn clear that Schmidtty was going to be more useful outside of the government, safe inside of Google's bunkers. Whatever Schmidty might say to the public, he's sitting on his nice little nest egg in the event that TSHTF[1]. He has an escape plan and possibly a security detail and a private jet to get the hell out. Probably has a few panic rooms built into that $22 million home of his[2]. >"His new home in Holmby Hills, an exclusive enclave that is one of three neighborhoods forming Los Angeles’ Platinum Triangle"[2] 'Enclave'? More like burbclave. But let's stop beating up the scarecrow and look at his points directly: >First, support startups. “When you look at the solutions to the problems that you’re describing, which ultimately lead to severe joblessness, they all involve creating fast-growth startups.” Now, it don't matter if your startup is makin' moonshine and running from the Fed[3] to hacking a new way to disrupt the sectors of integrated customer service experiences, it's obvious that startups are focused on Silicon Valley right now -- where the money is. Maybe we oughtta spread those startups out a little bit? >Second is “more education, more information, more connectivity.” He and President Obama have both pushed for more education in science, technology, engine
Yeah, exactly, and even though you're technically prohibited from excluding Americans in the job ads, take it from Cohen & Grigsby, there's plenty of ways around that problem: [VIDEO] They'll teach you how they assist employers in running classified ads with the goal of NOT finding any qualified American applicants. You can thank them directly here: [LINK]
To support his claim here's a video of a law firm advising companies on exactly how to craft employment ads to hire only foreign workers and not hire Americans even if they are qualified. In fact he even says it explicitly, the goal is to not hire a domestic worker, and getting a suitably experienced domestic worker applying for the job is considered a failure state of the process. [VIDEO] It tells you where to place your ads so that they are "publicly visible" but nobody sees them, and how to craft them to the exact skillset of the foreign worker you're already going to hire. They say that they are complying with the letter of the law, but they are not because the law requires you to make a good faith effort to hire domestically and they are telling you how to reject those candidates even if they apply. [VIDEO] "our goal is clearly to not to find a qualified and interested US worker." I understand the skepticism on HN because many people are working in places where real high-end work is being done. But I worked in the Midwest for over eight years and we had guys brought in to do Apache Struts work, and half the time I had to teach them how to do it. Maybe part of the reason some of you guys who really need qualified foreign workers are getting squeezed is because other companies are screwing you by fraudulently hiring. Why weren't the people in that video above ever prosecuted? They're on video admitting to crimes.
There's lots of evidence out there. Probably the most obvious signal for you should be that companies are complaining about a lack of workers, but wages are stagnant. Or another signal might be the fact that 50% of STEM grads have to work in unrelated industries because of an inability to find work in tech. If you want more proof of funniness: [VIDEO] Or if you want proof of major tech companies in the US colluding to suppress wages, look up everything related to this: [LINK] If you want proof of US companies paying slave wages in the US, etc etc. The funniness goes on and on.
Companies post fake ads that they never respond to in order to be "in compliance" with visa rules. Lawyers help them in their deception: [VIDEO]
How do you feel about companies and law firms gaming job postings to disqualify qualified workers in the US so they can hire a candidate on a visa for much less? Employers are posting jobs that don’t really exist, seeking candidates they don’t want, and paying for bogus non-ads to show there’s an IT labor shortage in America. Here is the law firm Cohen & Grigsby advising other employers in running classified ads with the goal of NOT finding any qualified applicants, and the steps they go through to disqualify even the most qualified Americans in order to secure green cards for H-1b workers: [VIDEO] Do you consider this abuse or fraudulent? Also, how much of your firm's work is done by paralegals using templates and boiler plate support letters?
The tech industry here in the US is so flush with foreign guest workers on the H1B, F1 OPT, L1, etc visas that companies are spoiled for choice. It may not be as bad as 2008-2009 when job postings were requiring 10+ years of experience for a mid-level dev, but I see job postings with 10-20 'must-have requirements' bullet points. BS 'requirements' like 5 years of Angular 2.0 or 10 years of Bootstrap. Companies are getting their fix of cheap labor by partnering up with universities to provide them via the F1 OPT work program. They enroll foreign workers to the university and the university put these 'students' to work for the companies under the guise that they're doing 'research work' for the university. Here's an article on it: [LINK] "PERM Fake Job Ads defraud Americans to secure green cards" [VIDEO] How Record Immigration Levels Robbed American High-Tech Workers of $10 Trillion [LINK] How American workers are being sold out, By Michelle Malkin and John Miano, November 8, 2015 [LINK] www.amazon.com/Sold-Out-Billionaires-Bipartisan-Crapweasels/dp/1501115944/ [LINK] other sources on visa abuse or fraud: John Miano - cis.org/Miano-Blog NumbersUSA - [LINK]
>artificial barriers Like citizenship? Do you consider citizenship an artificial barrier? As someone who has worked at tech companies and various law firms in the Silicon Valley, I've seen this story played out several times. Hire Cognizant, TCS, Infosys, Symphony, or some other outsourcing firm and then bring in H-1Bs for an entire department. All it does is drive down wages for everyone and hurt everyone except for the 1% at the top. How do you feel about companies and law firms gaming job postings to disqualify qualified workers in the US so they can hire someone on a visa for much less? Employers are posting jobs that don’t really exist, seeking candidates they don’t want, and paying for bogus non-ads to show there’s an IT labor shortage in America. Here is the law firm Cohen & Grigsby advising other employers in running classified ads with the goal of NOT finding any qualified applicants, and the steps they go through to disqualify even the most qualified Americans in order to secure green cards for H-1b workers: [VIDEO] Do you consider this abuse or fraudulent? >Or is this a guise for xenophobia? Implying that the only people against immigration are racists is just a lazy, offensive, and dismissive argument. Try something else.
Law firms have openly admitted to advising businesses in this kind of fraud! [LINK] "Our goal is clearly not to find a qualified and interested U.S. worker, and, you know, that in a sense that sounds funny, but it's what we're trying to do here. We are complying with the law, fully, but our objective is to get this person a greencard.... Certainly we are not going to try to find a place where [American] applicants would be most numerous.... if necessary schedule an interview, go through the whole process to find a legal basis to disqualify [the American applicant] for this particular position." [VIDEO]
Well, sort of. They don't have to answer any replies, though. Exhaustive discussion here: [LINK] But note in particular that firms specialize in coaching companies on how to fake compliance with such laws : story: [LINK] video proof: [VIDEO]
In my opinion, the real fix is to make the H-1B 'lottery' into an auction. Instead of accepting 65,000 H-1Bs at random--accept the 65,000 H-1Bs with the highest wages. That way we are getting the immigrants with the highest valued skills and stopping companies like Cognizant and Infosys that game the immigration system by applying for the cheapest H-1Bs possible. Look at the biggest H-1B recipients: [LINK] It's all low quality outsourcing shops like Cognizant and Infosys. If you've ever applied for an H-1B then you know how easy it is to abuse the prevailing wages. The process to evaluate the skills of the applicant is simply filling out a form online for their experience level, job title, and location. Give it a test here: [LINK] It's very easy to game their job title and location to lower the salary. Here is the law firm Cohen & Grigsby advising other employers in running classified ads with the goal of NOT finding any qualified applicants, and the steps they go through to disqualify even the most qualified Americans in order to secure green cards for H-1B workers: [VIDEO] This seems like clear fraud. The issue I have with H-1Bs is when companies lie/cheat/commit fraud to outsource jobs that Americans do want and are qualified/willing to do, all for the sake of driving down wages.
>There definitely is a STEM shortage, and you are being really dishonest if you say there isn't. 1) STEM is a term so board to be nonsensical in this context. 2) There may be some self-imposed "shortage" but that doesn't mean anything. Anyone can come up with a job with qualifications impossible to meet. Especially if this is a fake [1] job opening created solely so you can say "shortage!" [1] [VIDEO] Who is really being dishonest?
I recommend Cohen & Grigsby. They'll be happy to show you exactly how to run fake job ads locally in order to exclude American workers, then they'll show you how to use the various loopholes to get around what flimsy regulations exist, in order to get yourself a bunch of low wage immigrant employees who live in fear of losing their job and being sent back home. See for yourself here: [VIDEO]
When the standard operating procedure for companies is to post fake job ads with the sole purpose of not hiring an American, in order to get around the law, you know it's not working as intended. Watch lawyers (criminals) teach companies how to break the law: [VIDEO] Any tech CEO talking about "we're lacking skilled workers" or "we need more STEM workers" is deliberately perpetuating a system that is objectively defrauding Americans out of jobs. The companies are doing it for no other reason than to reduce labor costs, and they are using shady loopholes that should be enforced, but are not. The very first thing Trump could do is actually enforce the current laws, including increasing penalties, such as massive personal liability for management and investors of guilty companies.
There is no skills/jobs mismatch. These types of articles are part of a stealth propaganda campaign primarily designed to push for more immigration for the purpose of driving down wages. If people think there are not enough skilled workers domestically, they will support more immigration. Don't fall for it! Employers can't find skilled workers... at slave-wage salary. That's the part they never include. How is an app going to fix the problem of employers posting fake jobs domestically, in order to circumvent the immigration rules: [VIDEO]
Immigration lawyers explaining the use of fake job ads for H1B recruitment "Our goal is NOT to find a qualified US worker." [VIDEO] Follow the money :)
They are making these specific jobs tough to find because they are for a PERM test and don't want to get applicants. This video is old, but the same thing is happening today. [VIDEO]